I'm not sure 45 is a good choice for bear country, most folks choose a large caliber magnum revolver with bonded solids for that job. My own belief is that in most cases, people will over-carry for the sake of extra confidence. ), or a S&W in 30 Super Carry. To say that the 9mm Luger has been a success would be a severe understatement. A .357 magnum round can have similar effects. Apart from the .22lr, I would consider using any of them for self-defense. = 1/2 x mass x velocity squared. Today's 45s aren't that slow. Do you want to be shooting a bullet likely to go through a wall or a car door killing or maiming an innocent bystander? The truth is both velocity and mass increase penetration just as both increase energy, but this is what we have to realize. But thats still a bit of a long shot for a sidearm in a firefight. Kind of like when they took away the man stoppin 308 cal m14 and gave them a stinking 223 varmint round to fight a war with in nam. This page was last edited on 24 February 2023, at 12:37. The upward recoil maybe lesser but 9mm has a twisting recoil motion. YouTube sets this cookie to store the video preferences of the user using embedded YouTube video. BE SAFE!! I would like to add that the FBI test comparisons that are referred to are only half the test. 300 thousands of an inch diameter more than a 9mm HST.. my 1911 short trigger pull is fast. But the idea that the .45 will stop a man in his tracks no matter where you shoot him is preposterous. The following data is sourced from Ballistics by the Inch. But the .45 Auto does not have the power you are claiming it has. e.g. Lend-lease conditions were allegedly exorbitant but the US manufacturing base was undeniably a godsend), plus some of the other margins you refer to were, frankly, too close to argue, so I wont even try. .45. Go ahead, cite your experience. Great article!! 45 acp, with a father like the one we had, I have total confidence in that pistol. I dont have a problem with the recoil of any of the calibers so thats not an issue for me. These are the ammo that most departments use. You sound highly inexperienced. The hydrostatic shock of a .45 is inherently greater than a 9mm. It appears that overall, the optimal barrel length for 9mm (for something like an AR-15 pistol build, SBR, or similar setup), is about 7 to 8 inches for maximum efficiency and handling, though going longer can still have benefits. Josh surely has the skills to know that the results of this test on recoil and accuracy are more important than VELO only. Yep. click on the expand picture button on lower right hand corner. A lock ( Enjoy your retirement. Personally, I feel 9mm needs a boost in its speeds, because you are sacrificing bore size. What is best for competition use? shoot him with a 45 that does not over penetrate and has 80+% energy transfer or 275 lbs minimum and the fight is over. 45 is that it's so much easier to see the holes on a B27 target at 25 yards than 9mm holes. And yet after reading all the evidence about the benefits of 9mm and I'm already heavily invested in 9mm (and happy with it) I'm still looking at buying a 1911 because it seems everyone feels like they have to own at least one. some info is well hidden for obvious reasons. its a good idea to review any state and local laws before buying a 9mm if youre set on having a 15+1 capacity gun. My personal preference for a home defense handgun is a full-sized pistol chambered in .45 ACP. Its not the same underpowered round that the FBI abandoned in the early 1980s. "Glock Perfection" is a MYTH. It squirts so much flame out the sides it would scare an attacker half to death. (I carry .40 Smith & Wesson or a .45 Auto pistol with concealed carry.) That is simply bologne. Feel free to cite your real world experience that you keep vaguely referring to. Knock down power is quantifiable by the Taylor Knock Down Index. There is a difference between an LEO and a civilian. When did this stop being about the two rounds up for discussion? My 45 acp has a muzzle velosity of 1000 fps 510 foot lbs. A 9mm you feel comfortable carrying is better than the .45 or .44 mag you left home in your sock drawer. Hot stuff. Regarding protection against tyranny, every empire in history has fallen (you know that as well as any). Do your research. All loads and pistols are available commercially at the time of this writing. The 9mm also has a higher muzzle velocity than the .45 ACP because of its lighter bullets. I shoot one shot with a 45 and the muzzle blast brings the barrel up sometimes cocked sideways some making it slow and difficult getting the gun back on target. I have them all. The 9mms lighter recoil makes it easier for follow-up shots. In the majority of the states, anything more than 2 rounds down range puts in in the pin for excessive force! American manufacture and the American firearms industry was able to restock and resupply them when no one else could have. We say these things and move on. jack says if you throw a rock to throw the biggest rock. This way, I can make sure that he'll have some peace when I'm trying to fire some rounds on a practice target. When all you have is six rounds, you sure better be accurate, reloading took precious time. or 38 & 45 both. The carbine barrel length does not improve the interior, exterior, or terminal ballistics of many popular hollowpoints at all, but the carbine barrel length does push some 9mm hollowpoints into the .357 Magnum bracket in terms of velocity, energy, wound ballistics, and tactical penetration. you can not have any mags that hold more then 10 rounds, so I had to buy 10 round mags for the model 59 and at the same time I found 10 round ags for the m1991A. 12 RD mags, and 15 RD mags that dont take away from the beauty of the gun. The subcompact 9mm, is an ideal carry gun but it's lighter weight makes recoil control difficult. You must slow down. Center mass Shot placement. . I'd prefer to hit with a slow moving baseball than a faster golf ball . But after doing extensive research I've come to the conclusion that the ultimate home defense gun other than a 12 gauge would be a 45 pistol like the CMMG Banshee with a suppressor. If a guy rushes you with a knife and you shoot him with a few rounds of 22lr in the chest he'll probably die. I was wondering if Id be losing much by staying with the 4 inch barrel as opposed to the 5 inch. A lie of omission or a good-natured lie is still misinforming people. But, firing rounds takes time. As Katherine pointed out as well, there are so many variables which can come into play like freezing, forgetting to take the safety off, tunnel vision, forgetting everything you've ever been taught, gun jam, on and on. I do take into consideration penetration behind what I am aiming at with the 9mm because of over penetration, but you must ALWAYS be aware of what is behind the perp. Due to all of these factors, law enforcement orders of 9mm ammo from all major ammunition manufacturers have spiked significantly. From the days of the trusty Colt M1911 to. The Trijcon Laser/ Spot/ Flash is also bore sighted low to compensate for 300 yds with a 4x32 Leupold Huntsman Hi-Rise Mounted Scope on 1/2" QD Camlock to transfer to the Bulldog with the Bipod/ Foregrip. Many shooters like to have the .45 ACP for home defense. All the tellings of limited knowledge. ERIC! Thanks for the tips Katherine. I also hold no delusions that the US would have defeated the axis powers by itself. On these metrics, the rounds are generall equal. The 1911 has a 3.3" barrel and is also small. FMJ loads offer a rigid design for smooth penetration that doesn't deform on impact. This is a great article period.! Had I not already had an investment in 9mm equipment and ammo I would have considered the 45. One or two will stand out. By clicking Accept All, you consent to the use of ALL the cookies. Interesting. Yes Ive used other peoples experiences to enhance my knowledge. with your statement 9mm has less recoil. Today, modern incarnations of his cartridge significantly exceed that limit. In addition to this, the lower recoil, less wear, cheaper ammunition and higher capacity were all reasons that the report cited for the recent surge in orders of the ammunition from various police agencies. And full metal jacket 5.56 bullets are not more effective than 7.62 x 51 using full metal jacket from what I have read. Secure .gov websites use HTTPS My 45 is a Sig dual tone full size 1911 and I like the weight and the 5 inch barrel. I train lots of noobs on my firearms who want to buy for self defense. This wont be noticed in smaller, less powerful cartridges, such as the .17 HMR, but it will be noticed in large cartridges such as the .44 Magnum or .50 BMG. My personal word: It's quiet and very handy if you plan on silencing a weapon. a G43 to an AR15 fight. This should bring a target down. However, there might not be enough time for all that. This added pressure makes felt recoil from the 40 considerably snappier and more difficult to control. [7] [8] [9] And stay in touch with newsletters of our best articles on techniques, guns, & gear. He pulled out a 9mm round and a 45 acp round and held them both in his hand. We can hit a moving target at 75 yards away. And, if you are really concerned about penetration on hard targets, then you should probably be carrying a magnum or the .357 SIG or 10mm rounds, not a 9x19mm or .45 ACP. If the gun isn't comfortable to carry, chances are you won't every day carry, defeating the purpose. Soul people go to hell. ), .45 ACP (447 ft. Same debates have raged on Betamax vs VHS, mustang vs camaro, HD-DVD vs Bluray, etc etc. No looks or ballistics tests are going to help you there. Physics works whether you're a criminal or a descent citizen. I would have to say that for me I am more accurate with a .45 acp then a 9mm but that may be because the 1911 is a better fit for me and feels better balanced then a polymer 9mm. It's possible the man in the 80's wasn't being hit by modern 9mm expanding hollow-point defensive ammo. Most ATTACKERS will not realize the difference of being Hit with either bullet!! (Technically, the bullet is fastest at the instant the explosion occurs and the bullet is expelled from the cartridge.). Most data shows .45 ACP has a higher percentage of one shot stops as well as (IF multiple shots are required to stop a threat) the .45 ACP takes less shots. Well, when it comes to home defense, the .45 ACP does holdone distinct advantage over the 9mmshallower penetration. In my case it was no weapons displayed (but you must always assume present) against a $h!t brick linebacker. They are not 'cheap' as in inexpensive, either. any bullet that passes through the body only delivers 10% to 20% of energy to the body, like the hot 9mm that are famous for over penetrating human targets, not jello it is ENERGY that is stopping power. The 9mm is no pea shooter and a.45 acp is not a one shot giant killer. Let me start out by saying that the biggest mistake that most people make is taking a black-and-white stance on the .45 ACP and 9mm. Maybe for law enforcement but not personal defense situation. I had thousands .45 230 grains hardball and some +Ps hallow points with my standard 1911 when I tested my friend's full size 9mm. If you conceal carry then there is a 90% chance of bystanders being in your firing line. 30.30 The .380 is obviously light and slow and has the least penetration. 230gr X 800fps = 184000 or PF of 184. Most ATTACKERS even if not mortally wounded will address thier WOUND TRY to save THIER LIFE & not get SHOT Again!! As mentioned in the video, over-penetration isnt as big of a problem with the .45 ACP because of its slower, bulky bullets. YouTube sets this cookie via embedded youtube-videos and registers anonymous statistical data. Primer: Boxer. The 919mm Parabellum (also known as 9mm Parabellum or 9mm Luger or simply 9mm) is a rimless, tapered firearms cartridge . I also like 9 millimeter Luger as an alternative long gun round over .22 Long Rifle as recoil sensitive people can shoot this and do more damage. Something to remember when shopping around for a 9mm. Based on tests of 12 hollowpoints, the 9mm pistol and the 9mm carbine produced the same average estimated wound ballistics. I guess the only improved ammo is the .9mm? That is just simply a foolish claim to make. Your personal guarantee is meaningless. 540 ft lb was the highest recorded muzzle energy for the 9mm in their testing. If you have a budget that, hypothetically, only allows you to fire 100 rounds at the range per visit every week/month, then that same budget will only get you 60-70 rounds with a 45. I really enjoy carrying the 22 TCM, 19 rnd, 40 gr hollow points. Fragmentation, on the other hand, does not reliably occur in handgun wounds due to the relatively low velocities of handgun bullets. Thats the meat eater .lol. They hardly hit that number. Plus, law enforcement, judges, and the average person usually see revolvers as less threatening than a high capacity auto-loader. Equipped with a suppressor, they make ideal home defense weapons and they are less likely to over-penetrate. If a bullet is traveling at a faster speed, it will either penetrate deeper, expand better, or both. An official website of the United States government, Department of Justice. My EDC is a Glock G30 and I have two Home Defense weapons, a Glock G21SF and a .300 Blackout AR 15. Do the math. 45cals are GREAT and so are 9mm, but If you Hit a ATTACKER IN the NECK or CHEST with a 9mm he is not going to say, "It's only a 9mm let me finish attacking this person". Ok, Id agree thats a pretty reasoned response - its a complex issue (eg. They went back to the .9mm due to the fact that the new meat in the FBI were not man or woman enuff to handle the .40. How well you can control the weapon is a HUGE factor. Well, this might rock your world but I recommend getting one of each assuming you have the money. They couldn't even handle 40 S&Was. No 9mm arguably matches that bullet's performance. I'm going with the 45 because I'm also getting a Henry lever action rifle to match it. "ANY GUN will do!! I carry a Sig P320 Compact in .45 ACP (I mainly carry .45 ACP) and 357 SIG. of energy at the muzzle. The HST .45 ACP does it with its massive permanent wound cavity (for a handgun). BS! Every time. Close your eyes, then bring the weapon up to bear. It shows you like 9m you talk about both but talking about 45 it was more about 9m but talking about 9m it was 9m but I enjoyed to know it so me both. The FBI employs some smart people. The LaserLyte is bore set low to compensate up to 300 yds. I still posses a .45 among my various handguns, and I still enjoy shooting with it. They're comparable. The cookie is set by crwdcntrl.net to collect statistical data such as the number of visits, average time spent on site, and what pages have been loaded, for targeted advertising. It happened though there was usually a .45 GM carried by TL or RTO (almost SOP for RTO). Our Friends One thing I do like about 9mm ammo that wasn't mentioned is the weight especially in bulk. I have been shot at a couple more times, they missed. My son bought 00 because he thought it was a good idea to be absolutely sure he could take an intruder down, where birdshot might be 'iffy'. I have done a lot of chronograph work with different barrel lengths . Almost reaching weak .44 mag specs Take the 155gr XTP 10mm round from Underwood. I witnessed a man in the early 80s with over a dozen 9mm rounds in him. Watch key board warriors loose their mind. And this is all before we even talk about the lack of concealability of .45 ACP double stack. Just get both calibers. Put several makes and models in your hand. I had one patient shot 11 times with what looked like a .380 or 9mm, hard to tell on xray. I started my handgun experience as a .40 cal guy. You have to live, or die, by your choice. A shift to the right or left could clear the background behind them. Not every confrontation is going to be 'range based'. 3. Ive loved the 45 since my Marine Corps days 50 years ago. For me the recoil is like a BB gun but has a similar down range damage as a 9mm. Expecially a HEAD, NECK or double tap CHEST shot!! I like the .45 Auto round. As a retired LEO during the transition to semi-auto in the 80s, what is too politically incorrect and never mentioned is more females and smaller statured people entered the military and law enforcement. One type of ammo in both guns makes things easier. And if a Riot Festival ;looms, I'll be riding in the back seat doing Green Beret carry of either my AK or AR, too. Shot placement and Round choice will be the determining factors for desired outcome. Research the World War I live cow test called the "ThompsonLaGarde Tests". All bullets kill. Copyright Ammotogo.com 2023 All Rights Reserved. The cheaper sprays have less contents so don't spray as long. At a 30% hit rate during actual combat (due to adrenaline and urgency of quickness) add in a fall rate like no other (45) and it drops to 20%. Or blind them. 9mm can be a reasonable choice. They will both have the same result! After examining the gunshot wounds, the study ranked accuracy as follows for chest and head shots: .380 ACP (76%), 9mm (74%), .40 S&W (76%), .357 SIG (81%), .45 ACP (85%), and .44 Magnum (88%) (there was no information on 10mm). This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. to find out what would be the optimal barrel length. When it comes to the issue of 9mm vs .45, obviously bullet placement and bullet construction is key for stopping an assailant. The 9mm was developed by Georg Luger in 1901, who based it upon his earlier 7.6521mm Parabellum. A bear attack can happen very quickly. So, caliber choice. Kinetic energy. I solved the argument of the 9mm vs the 45acp I have a 10mm and it's the best of both worlds, I am a Competition shooter I have shock sigsauer 9 mm Very unimpressed first of all Sigg Sire that I have the frame is bent Feel free to check out these sources: No way could I tell you whats right for you. As for the tool, I like the Springfield XD series. I think the recoil of 45 is way overblown. If you can hit with one and allways misswith the others , I think I would chose the one you can make the most hits with, just from my own exsperance , I had some mild steel targets out at my home we used to shoot at all day and almost every day with .38 spl, And 9 mm, then I bought a kimber1911 With the 14RD+1 extension handle mag that's my HP4573. You think that you can outshoot a cop? He noted that the wall was splattered with not just blood, but flesh and bone. But can you deal with what you've done afterwards mentally? It depends on the body armor (type and quality) as well as the ammunition used. Luger presented his new round to both Great Britain and the U.S. before it was adopted by the Imperial German Navy in 1904 and the German Army four years later. ( Look it up) I'm a person who lives in a rural area, no longer military and not a cop. Just a thought. you make me laugh. My "bedroom" gun (the one I keep ready for home defense situation) is a 1911 Gov. A key advantage, as stated, is the 45's shallower penetration for home defense. The extension mag wrapped allows for a 'golf grip' & more leverage to handle recoil. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/45auto.html Hum. 3. One of the most attractive things about choosing a 9mm for home defense is having more rounds at your disposal. Great article. So, if you consider 10 rounds of 45ACP sufficient, then, definitely, the choice would be the Glock 30. Who are we? Impressive. chambered in .400 Corbon gives me the power of a 10mm in a 45 ACP case size. However, I am getting an M&P9 2.0 for my daily carry. And the proof he show. Yea! There are really two types of gun owners who really want to focus on muzzle velocity. I am currently looking into a kimber ultra carry ii or a sig p938. Statistically this is a dead heat and well within any reasonable margin of error; but remember, the 9mm and .45 ACP wound channels are essentially the same in size, so what is the difference? Now I am a range officer and shoot concealed carry and IDPA style matches regularly. Both in MY OPINION have similar kick to them. Use a gun and round that you can shoot well - which takes practice. But do please keep up the good work with the site - from a country where only the police are allowed handguns, its like a window on the free world. My instructors told me that the main r reason the Navy didn't want to switch to a 9mm was that you can hit a 300 pound man with a 9mm as he's running toward you. We hate SPAM and promise to keep your email address safe. All the comments are great. An in-depth look at 9mm ballistics. Great and very useful data: I would however like to see this same test done with the common barrel length of AR-9 and other like P.C.C.s and 9mm platforms chambered in 9mm. So you can literally grab, draw, aim and shoot. Both handguns have a huge following thanks to their popularity and success in the field. These points are from my personal observations as an Army Ranger, Police SWAT Commander, Private Military Contractor, and firearms instructor - no disrespect intended to the women in uniform. I can't imagine that trade would be so great either. Lots of experts claiming facts on stopping power, energy, penetration, etc. We measured the velocity for all 40 rounds using a Competition Dynamics Prochrono chronograph placed 10 feet away from the muzzle. The important things here are Bullet Type, and bullet placement. I carried and used the 45 ACP in the military. He wrote: The FBI and many police departments are going back to the 9mm for one reason and one reason only its easier to qualify with a 9mm. If not please remember Grand Theft Auto is just a video game, not real life. For self defense close or far away. Instagram In addition to firearms-related work, Josh enjoys working with animals and researching conservation projects in his home state of Michigan. This is where accuracy matters. Josh thank you for this. May be a great home defense gun, but far from ultimate . I pushed a wire into the hole to see how far it penetrated. I've seen A LOT of patients shot with numerous calibers. I once read an account by someone who shot an intruder at close range with a shotgun. 45ACP. The link is entitled to be wrong lol, the capacity of 9mm the distance and all is great . Muzzle Velocity. As a civilian I doubt the I will need an ammo dump under my gun to defend my life. 1 thing that cannot be argued is that the 22 cal is very effective. A range instructor at Camp Pendleton once told me most would-be handgun shooters would be more effective hurling the pistol itself at the enemy rather than trying to aim and fire it. I guess a lot has to do with comfort of us & quality of placement. If you're afraid of what's behind your target you shouldn't be shooting in the first place. 40 S&W and 45 ACP usually make Major. Type your email address and well send Best argument I ever heard was, even if your hollowpoint fails to expand, a .45 will always punch a .45 hole. wrapped in plastic and carried in chest pocket for the sauve qui peut event that could occur on a 5 Man patrol: weapon broken or having to swim River to E&E. When you said buy both at the end I was thinking .45 for carry and 9mm for backup. 9x19mm Parabellum is by far the most popular handgun cartridge for self-defense in the world. The pattern element in the name contains the unique identity number of the account or website it relates to. Would I even ever use it? A couple of things: 1. The problem is you can't always be sure of what's behind your target in a defensive situation. .45 S&W Shield for concealed and home defense and Glock 17 for shtf all bases covered. Quantserve sets the mc cookie to anonymously track user behaviour on the website. Considering a switch. Could I ask you why every special forces in the world including the Seals and SAS use 9mm MP5s mostly. for Grizzly. Calibre has very little to do with it. But I know you won't understand. Velocity and barrel length data for 9x19mm Parabellum, also known as 9mm Luger and so on. Well it will make holes in bad guy/rabbid dog I am confident that I can stop attack with .22LR cause I can shoot 8 rounds in about 3 secconds center body mass, palm size group. The 9mm also has a higher muzzle velocity than the .45 ACP because of its lighter bullets. It would be great if the test was run as a Designed Experiment (DOE), rather than just testing for on factor (muzzle velocity). Adam, Eve (before they sinned), and the Lord Jesus Christ (Who never sinned.) The answer is 40SW. STL like the conversation but on a different subject did anyone see the movie the card Counter I see one of the stars of the movie was wearing a Pew Pew tactical shirt. Then rinse and repeat as needed. I totally spilt the difference and went with Beretta 96 chambered in .40 S&W. towards your level. Yes! If you had a slightly larger gun with a magazine holding seven or eight rounds (or more, such as a double-stack with 10, like a Glock 26) was available, you'd essentially have plenty (in most cases). Nothing against the 9mm, I own several, for the range, not for carry. Its not about hitting something or someone behind the assailant, it's about hitting something through the wall and the garden fence behind the assailant. wrist. TL after me had 116 CQK, and TL after him had over 40 (and a posthumous MOH). I have both and like them both. The 1911 can be obtained in the 9mm as well as the 45 caliber but there would be another discussion circling back which is better. Since the shooter is the main determinant in any weapons efficacy for self-defense, that is possibly the 9mm greatest strength. The .45ACP is a superior defensive round, all else being equal. The 9mm carbine is rapidly replacing the 12-gauge shotgun in many areas of law enforcement, because it holds more ammunition, makes hits more easily, and has negligible recoil. The only drawback is that it is not super concealable for every day, but I havent looked into a shoulder holster. Certainly this is easy to understand with the .44 Magnum because it's increased velocity and mass produces essentially twice that of 9mm, but you can't say that about the other calibers. Sure, they will both do the job, but a fatter heavier bullet is better for man stopping. What ever cal. Forced to choose I'd take 9mm all day for so many reasons.. 9mm or 45? Corresponding energies ranged from 228 ft-lbs to 345 ft-lbs. I myself started out carrying a 22.lr handgun because it was what I shot since I was a kid. So therefore if you had a smallish gun with 6+1, you'd be covered. A 45 will stop an attacker much quicker than a 9mm. The one thing I never see mentioned about the .45 acp is that because it's a slower round and over penetration issues drop dramatically it, FMJ is still a very good SD/HD ammo. 9mm on average has more energy l. It also has more penetration. As mentioned the simple fact is that the recoil of a 9mm is so much more manageable than a .45 which I call 'hand cannons'. Nuff said. I mean, the FBI testing protocol is just like Mil-Specit sounds cool til you actually know what it is. Good show all. But the data from all three sources tend to lean towards heavier bullets penetrating more than slower ones, and then tend to be more accurate. I currently carry a .40 s&w. If he dont go down choot em again. I will always favor 45 Acp over 9mm. Varmint applies to large game too.. Ha, Ha, Ha. Adam and Eve passed on the nature of sin (spiritual death) to the whole human race (see Romans 5:12-21), which is why we MUST be "born again of the spirit in order to enter the Kingdom of God" (see John 3:3).